What should I look out for?

[wrathchild_67]

For simultaneous multitasking, the P4 is actually going to be faster- your workflow won't be interrupted nearly as much as with the single-core A64 3000+. The components you chose for that P4 platform are dated and are going to limit you almost from the get-go. Go ahead and look at any of my previous posts in the CPUs forum here at HWC. You'll see that I am an AMD fanboy, but I can give an honest and accurate opinion on a processor. You didn't mention if you plan to do any video work, and what info you did post was a bit sparse. How many open programs do you expext to have running at once? The one saving grace of going with the Athlon64 3000+ s939 is that you will be able to upgrade to dual core later. With the P4 system you're already at a dead end upgrade wise (well unless you count the Pentium Mobile with socklet 479 adapter that you could use with that particular Asus board).

[Todd a]

Any of the new 90nm Athlon64s run very cool. The best for the money is likely a Venice cored Athlon64 3000+. AMD rates their CPU quite strange for watage and it is actually much lower. At 1.8Ghz I would guess if would only be pulling about 30-35w. A P-4 3Ghz would likely pull about 80-90w. That is a huge differance. This effects your choice on case cooling and the power supply and will likely effect the amount of noise your system will make. If you are going to sit next to you for hours at a time, then the noise might get to you. The Athlon64, even with the basic stock cooler that ships in the retail package runs very cool and most motherboards have something like Q-Fan to run the fans at 5v unless the temps hit a preset point (like 51'C for my system is set for... which it has never hit). Then it will turn it back to 12v.

Performance wise it is a trade-off between applications until you get to games. The Athlon64 will win every time, but like you said you are not using it for games. The P4 has one advantage and that is if you are going to run multiple applications at the same time and both will load the system bad. The P4 will shine there.

If you are running a threaded application (SMP) then the P4 or a dual core CPU might help performance, but the dual cores cost a bit more and the dual cored P-D is even more of a hog.

Antec has some nice Antec cases that come with 350w power supplies that are around $70 that are pretty nice. Since graphics is not a worry, then you might get a Radeon Express 200 based motherboard with Radeon x300 integrated graphics. Not much for gaming, but it is pretty nice overall and you can upgrade to a differant graphics card later. They run $87 for this MSI one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813130485

With the Vinice 3000+ for $147:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103537

And this Antec SLK1650B case with 350w power supply for $65:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129150

Drop the graphics card and use everything else you listed (I personally like the Corsare Value Select cas 2.5 DDR400 and they probaly cost about the same). The DVD drive is not a big deal unless you are doing a lot of burning. If you were, then I would also recommend getting a Sony Combo drive (DVD and CD recorder in one) for $30. They are much faster for general use and can burn CDs or play DVDs while you are burning a DVD on the other drive. For $30 it is worth it.

[equinoxe3d]

Originally Posted by Off Top

Just out of curiosity (not trying to be confrontational), why do you have a 3Ghz P4? And if you had to do again, would you get the Athlon 64 3000+ instead?

It's not confrontational, actually it's a pretty good question

My P4 is an older Socket 478 Northwood (the 2nd gen P4). Those were probably the brightest days for the P4 IMO, where they introduced Hyper-Threading on their complete line and 800MHz FSB. It actually competed very well with the Athlon XP at the time, the latter was cheaper, but the P4 still holded its own with everything media-related (video encoding and editing, multimedia software).

The first-gen P4 (Willamette) were lackluster in performance, losing to a slower-clocked PIII in some apps, and needed special expensive RDRAM. The modern P4 (Prescott) has higher performance than a Northwood at a similar clock speed, but in trying to compete with the A64 while keeping the same architecture, the heat levels and power consumption went much higher. Don't get me wrong, the modern P4 is not a catastrophy, but with the A64 leading in prices, temperatures and overall performance (even in some media apps) IMO it's a bit harder to justify a P4. The only thing AMD lacks is Hyper-Threading which gives smoother multitasking and a slight boost under some apps, but with the advent of dual-core CPUs it will become unneccessary for both AMD and Intel.

I bought my P4 mainly for two reasons: media performance and Hyper-Threading. But I got it in 2003, before the A64 went mainstream. Today I'd definately buy an A64, but I don't regret my P4 at all.

[Off Top]

wow, great responses

Originally Posted by wrathchild_67

For simultaneous multitasking, the P4 is actually going to be faster- your workflow won't be interrupted nearly as much as with the single-core A64 3000+. The components you chose for that P4 platform are dated and are going to limit you almost from the get-go. Go ahead and look at any of my previous posts in the CPUs forum here at HWC. You'll see that I am an AMD fanboy, but I can give an honest and accurate opinion on a processor. You didn't mention if you plan to do any video work, and what info you did post was a bit sparse. How many open programs do you expext to have running at once? The one saving grace of going with the Athlon64 3000+ s939 is that you will be able to upgrade to dual core later. With the P4 system you're already at a dead end upgrade wise (well unless you count the Pentium Mobile with socklet 479 adapter that you could use with that particular Asus board).

Okay, just to clarify a few things...

The most I'll have open at one time is:
Photoshop (graphics)
Swish or Macromedia (flash)
Newsbin Pro (newsgroups)
Firefox (browsing)
BitComet (torrents)
A text editor like Notepad, CuteHTML, etc.

My current set up is a P4 2.0 with 512 RAM, and PS and Newsbin are the most consuming programs. I already know how all of these programs perform with this setup, so I imagine any upgrade will give me some increase in performance... just a matter of how much, I suppose.

Given that, which of my chosen components would you say are "dated"?

Originally Posted by Todd a

Any of the new 90nm Athlon64s run very cool. The best for the money is likely a Venice cored Athlon64 3000+. AMD rates their CPU quite strange for watage and it is actually much lower. At 1.8Ghz I would guess if would only be pulling about 30-35w. A P-4 3Ghz would likely pull about 80-90w. That is a huge differance. This effects your choice on case cooling and the power supply and will likely effect the amount of noise your system will make. If you are going to sit next to you for hours at a time, then the noise might get to you. The Athlon64, even with the basic stock cooler that ships in the retail package runs very cool and most motherboards have something like Q-Fan to run the fans at 5v unless the temps hit a preset point (like 51'C for my system is set for... which it has never hit). Then it will turn it back to 12v.

Performance wise it is a trade-off between applications until you get to games. The Athlon64 will win every time, but like you said you are not using it for games. The P4 has one advantage and that is if you are going to run multiple applications at the same time and both will load the system bad. The P4 will shine there.

If you are running a threaded application (SMP) then the P4 or a dual core CPU might help performance, but the dual cores cost a bit more and the dual cored P-D is even more of a hog.

Antec has some nice Antec cases that come with 350w power supplies that are around $70 that are pretty nice. Since graphics is not a worry, then you might get a Radeon Express 200 based motherboard with Radeon x300 integrated graphics. Not much for gaming, but it is pretty nice overall and you can upgrade to a differant graphics card later. They run $87 for this MSI one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813130485

With the Vinice 3000+ for $147:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103537

And this Antec SLK1650B case with 350w power supply for $65:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129150

Drop the graphics card and use everything else you listed (I personally like the Corsare Value Select cas 2.5 DDR400 and they probaly cost about the same). The DVD drive is not a big deal unless you are doing a lot of burning. If you were, then I would also recommend getting a Sony Combo drive (DVD and CD recorder in one) for $30. They are much faster for general use and can burn CDs or play DVDs while you are burning a DVD on the other drive. For $30 it is worth it.

I've never had computer noise bother me, but I listen to music about 99% of the time I'm at the computer. I don't think that'll be an issue.

As for cooling, will the case you recommended not be suitable for a P4?

And my wife does a lot of burning. I'll definitely look into that Sony Combo drive for her. I do most of my backing up with CD-Rs, and copying important files to multiple HD's. I'm lazy in that area.

Originally Posted by equinoxe3d

It's not confrontational, actually it's a pretty good question

My P4 is an older Socket 478 Northwood (the 2nd gen P4). Those were probably the brightest days for the P4 IMO, where they introduced Hyper-Threading on their complete line and 800MHz FSB. It actually competed very well with the Athlon XP at the time, the latter was cheaper, but the P4 still holded its own with everything media-related (video encoding and editing, multimedia software).

The first-gen P4 (Willamette) were lackluster in performance, losing to a slower-clocked PIII in some apps, and needed special expensive RDRAM. The modern P4 (Prescott) has higher performance than a Northwood at a similar clock speed, but in trying to compete with the A64 while keeping the same architecture, the heat levels and power consumption went much higher. Don't get me wrong, the modern P4 is not a catastrophy, but with the A64 leading in prices, temperatures and overall performance (even in some media apps) IMO it's a bit harder to justify a P4. The only thing AMD lacks is Hyper-Threading which gives smoother multitasking and a slight boost under some apps, but with the advent of dual-core CPUs it will become unneccessary for both AMD and Intel.

I bought my P4 mainly for two reasons: media performance and Hyper-Threading. But I got it in 2003, before the A64 went mainstream. Today I'd definately buy an A64, but I don't regret my P4 at all.

When you say the A64 has a slight disadvantage in multitasking, would that include the tasks I mentioned earlier in this post?

[equinoxe3d]

Originally Posted by Off Top

When you say the A64 has a slight disadvantage in multitasking, would that include the tasks I mentioned earlier in this post?

I haven't personnaly worked with an Athlon 64, so I can't tell how much it helps there. Keep in mind that Hyper-Theading on the P4 helps multitasking, but it doesn't make the A64 a poor multitasker. Since from the tasks you listed there isn't any rendering or encoding (the strong force of the P4, and one of the most stressful multitasking scenarios if you do other things in the same time), the HT would have a more limited use.

However I think Wrathchild has used both platforms, so he could probably explain it better than I do.

[Todd a]

It is hard to tell. Most of those applications arelight applications and your 2Ghz P4 did not have HT, so likely you should see a nice boost in performance. If any of those are complete CPU hogs, then a P4 might help when you are running a ton.

I do a lot of... backing up of DVDs... and when running DVD decript ripping a DVD off my combo drive, while DVD Shrink recompresses it to fit on a single sided DVD then burns it automatically back to my DVD recorder, I am generally surfing the net. If I am looking stuff up, I might have a dozen windows open. At this point it does start to get a bit sluggish, but it never screws up the DVD recording and everything does run good. I can also do this while watching a DivX movie, listening to music, or watching TV with my TV tuner.

As for cooling, the case will likely do fine for a P4, but you will not have a lot of room for upgrades do to the cooling and power supply. Like I said, the P4 you are looking at draws 50w more than the Venice core and that also adds about 10w more to the motherboard's power draw from all the voltage regulators. With integrated graphics on the Radeon Express200 chipset, you are looking at about 2-3 times better graphics and about 25-50w less than a standalone graphics card... and actually about the same performance as that 9250 likely. That means the system is now drawing about 100w less total. The power supply will also add more power draw as most are only about 70% efficient. If the P4 system you speced draws 250w, that is another 50w the power supply will use. The Athlon system would likely be down around 150w and the PS will add 30w to that. That might not seem like much, but that means the P4 system will likely cost you a small amount extra to power ($2-3 a month), but will also dump an extra 120w into your computer room. If it is a small room with not the best veltilation, then this can make a big differance.

I guess I am picky. I like my system being whisper quiet. It also performs very well. I also have a lot of upgrade paths. A dual core is one of those things. In August AMD is releasing a dual core Athlon64 X2 3800+, with will be running 2 cores at 2Ghz. The good thing is it will fall less than $350 and be out in less than a month. I'm currently painting a house (outside) on the side right now for an extra $1500, so I am looking at this a lot.

[Off Top]

Hmmmmmm, now I'm really undecided. Thanks Todd!

[Off Top]

New developments.. the P4 I picked out was in some kind of one-day sale on newegg. If the price goes back up significantly, I may try the AMD by default. They haven't updated the price though... we'll see.


But for RAM... this Corsair ValueSelect is 1GB (2 x 512MB) DDR 400 (PC 3200), just like the Kingston RAM I picked out. But the Corsair's Cas Latency is 2.5 as opposed to 3, and the price is $80.25 instead of $85.99. Any reason to stick with the Kingston?

[Off Top]

Originally Posted by Off Top

this Corsair ValueSelect is 1GB (2 x 512MB) DDR 400 (PC 3200), just like the Kingston RAM I picked out. But the Corsair's Cas Latency is 2.5 as opposed to 3, and the price is $80.25 instead of $85.99. Any reason to stick with the Kingston?

also... this AG Neovo F-419 monitor is 80 bucks cheaper than the 19" Samsung I was lookin at.

I recognize the brand Samsung a lot more, and it's a slightly better monitor.. but 80 bucks better? hmmmmmm

[F_A_L_C_O_N]

Dont go cheap on the monitor, this is what your eyes are looking at and eye surgen is a lot more expensive in the long run

[Off Top]

Of course.. the problem with newegg is, you never know if something is cheap because of quality, or just a really good sale. Just like that ram

[Todd a]

LCDs have come a long way in the last 1-2 years, but only the name brands have implimented a majority of these improvements. LCDs have a lot of inherant flaws to them to overcome and getting a budget LCD could result in a monitor with a lot of ghosting, flicker, dead pixels, poor interpalation, narrow viewing angles, low contrast and brightness... I'm still a CTR man because of this. Buying a budget LCD just seams to be a waste. If you want to save money than get a CTR instead.

[Martin_89]

all the 90nm AMD Cores will run quite a bit cooler than the P4 and even the standard heat sink is fine for them. im not sure about the 130nm cores, they are likely cooler too.

[Todd a]

Yes they are still cooler, but not by as much. The 90nm cores are like 1/3 the power draw. Besides, the 130nm cores will dry up soon. AMD has stopped making them and switched all their production over to 90nm. Yeilds are good, so costs on making these must be good. They are slowly gaining market share and the prices of their CPUs are still strong. The fact that these cores are about 40% smaller also means they can make a lot of them. This lets them make more dual cores too.

[Off Top]

Before Intel vs AMD XXXVIII breaks out, can someone answer this please?

Originally Posted by Off Top

But for RAM... this Corsair ValueSelect is 1GB (2 x 512MB) DDR 400 (PC 3200), just like the Kingston RAM I picked out. But the Corsair's Cas Latency is 2.5 as opposed to 3, and the price is $80.25 instead of $85.99. Any reason to stick with the Kingston?

Newegg's prices keep going up slowly. I think they're trying to punish their "patient" customers with wish lists.